Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Started by billhook301
22 replies 20 likes Last activity: 7 years ago
#23

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

In some respects you can think of a brushless motor as part way between a standard brushed electric motor and an I/C engine.

The brushless can turn on and off like the electric motor, and is clean like the electric motor.

It has a high power-to-weight ratio like the I/C engine, can't run slow like the I/C engine, and you need to make sure that the heat is flushed away....
Liked by Martin555 and redpmg
#22

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Hi DodgyGeezer,
Thank you, I feel much better informed.

Martin.
If it looks right it probably is.
Liked by DodgyGeezer
#21

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

"...I am much wiser about this subject now..."

Court comment attributed to the famous barrister F E Smith, in the early years of the 20th century:

"Judge: Smith, I've listened to you for an hour on this case and I'm still not one bit the wiser.
Smith: None the wiser perhaps, my lord, but certainly better informed."

😁
Liked by Martin555
#20

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Hi DodgyGeezer,
Thank you for the information.
I am much wiser about this subject now.
Thanks.

Martin.
If it looks right it probably is.
#19

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

"...So would you say that if you made something like my HMS Cottesmore (1/48 scale) and was to run it at more realistic speed it would be better to use brushed motors?..."

1 - Do what you are happiest with, and experiment to learn more...!

2 - Brushless are a more efficient motor type, use a more advanced technology, and will probably supersede brushed technology at some point. They are being used more and more often in household appliances. I expect that we will eventually move to them 100%.

3 - I don't know your particular model, but if you moved to brushless you would get more power and a longer running time out of the same batteries - though maybe not enough to notice...?

4 - If you want to maintain slow running, you might think about gearing the brushless down, or using a Sensor motor. Both of these options involve extra cost, and you might not find the performance advantage worth while. Sensor prices seem to be coming down, so that might be something to think about for the future. That's probably what I would use if I were making a big slow-speed model at the moment...
Liked by Martin555
#18

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

".....brushless motors the main question is speed controller as I would need forward and reverse...."

Simple answer.

You can get reversible brushless ESCs. However, watch out, as boats are a minority interest and many cheap reversible brushless ESCs are designed for car use. These may have a 'braking' feature, which means that the controls work like this:

forward stick = forward
backward stick = motor braked
quick forward and backward again = motor goes in reverse

which is optimum for cars, but cumbersome for boats. A proper boat designed brushless ESC will be fine, as will be a cheap car one where you can turn off the 'brake'. RNinMunich recommends the Quicrun series of Chinese brushless ESCs, but of course products change all the time.

So check that the ESC you are after is reversible, and has a 'no-brake' setting....


Rather more complex background explanation.

This is my understanding of how one particular 'brushless' system works - there may well be other technologies out there... :

'Commutation' is the process of switching each coil in an electric motor on at the right time to get attracted to the nearest magnet and off when it passes the magnet, so that the armature will rotate in one direction.

In a brushed motor this happens mechanically, and we don't need to worry about it. If you want to know a bit more, get a Taycol motor and start reading papers like this: http://what-when-how.com/electric-motors/commutation-electric-motors/

In a brushless motor, commutation is done by software inside the ESC. So the ESC is essential to a brushless motor - it won't run without one.

What the software in a brushless ESC does is start the motor with a pre-programmed series of activations of coils. Once spinning, the software detects the generated back-emf as a magnet passes each coil, and uses this to work out the motor speed, timing, and hence which coils to activate next, depending on the throttle signal. Obviously, this happens very fast.

If the motor went round slowly, the generated back-emf would be very low, and the ESC would have difficulty detecting it. So a typical brushless motor has a minimum speed which is quite high compared to a brushed motor.

In a sensor motor, the ESC can be much more precise about timing because it reads it off the Hall-effect sensor. It can also run at much slower speeds. But the extra kit, and the low production levels mean that these are going to be more expensive motors.

For a brushless ESC the starting process, and the reversing process, are much more complicated than they are in a brushed motor. In each case the software has to try to detect what the motor is doing and adjust the timing to get it running in the right direction 'blind', with possibly odd feedback from the coil back EMF. For a brushed motor, the ESC just reverses the polarity and the mechanical commutation automatically applies a force in the direction you want.

The result is that brushless starts can be a bit jerky, and brushless reverses need 'setting up' with a process of signalling from your transmitter or using a program card. Since cheap brushless ESCs are often turned out with little documentation, making them reverse can sometimes be difficult for an inexperienced purchaser.
Liked by Rowen and Martin555
#17

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Hi DodgyGeezer,
Thank you for all of the information.
I understand this a little bit more now.
I see many models hammering across the water but I like to see more scale speeds.
So would you say that if you made something like my HMS Cottesmore (1/48 scale) and was to run it at more realistic speed it would be better to use brushed motors?
(I must admit that is what I have fitted)

Martin.
If it looks right it probably is.
#16

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Thanks for your input DodgyGeezer I mainly fly aircraft and all fitted with brushless motors the main question is speed controller as I would need forward and reverse.
Sky Diving, if at first you don't succeed, give up.
Liked by Martin555
#15

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

"????????????????? "
Oops! We seem to have ruffled some feathers chaps🤔😮
Sorry pardon Bill, but that's what tends to happen with conversations amongst friends!

A word or two of appreciation for the folks who took time to offer workable solutions (and offer evidence that they work) would not have been out of place.
Doug
Young at heart 😉 Slightly older in other places.😊 Cheers Doug
#14

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Yes - S3 / S4 etc refers to number of cells in a Lipo. Lipos are 3v-4.3v per cell, need special chargers and critical care compared to the more robust NiMh batteries. Unless you really need the small, light, ultra- powerful Lipos for racing or something, I think it's best to stick with hi-power NiMh cells.
Liked by Martin555
#13

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Hi DodgyGeezer,
Thank you for the information very informative.
Up until now I didn't have a clue about this subject.
I am not a technical guy I am a try it and see type of guy!
However I have seen in some of the threads mention S3, S4 and so on.
I assume that is the number of cells in a battery pack ?

Martin.
If it looks right it probably is.
#12

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

"....that is why I was looking at this thread with interest.
As I hoped to learn something!."

My thoughts about brushless motors...

- they are a different kind of motor, so they have different characteristics. In particular they need different ESCs.
- Their ESCs come with three cables. You can connect them to the three inputs to the motor in any order. If you want the motor to go backwards, simply reverse any of the two connections.
- you can get In-runners, which are high-speed ones. Out-runners are higher torque ones. There is a special type called 'Sensored' which can go very slow and are used for rock-crawling vehicles, but they need special Sensor ESCs and are expensive.
- they are much more efficient without a sparking commutator to pass electricity through.
- they don't have tight limits on the voltage they must be run at. More volts = more speed, and hence power.
- they are happiest running at high speed. They don't much like trying to run slowly, and tend to start with a jerk.
- the main limitation on them is thermal. You can run them until the coils get too hot for the magnets to work (upon which they are fatally damaged!).
- you can get astonishing amounts of power out of quite small sized motors if you give them enough electricity and keep them cool. They suck up power from batteries given the chance, and high-output batteries like Lipos are ideal for them. If you use other batteries, check that the battery can output a lot of power - if it can't, the brushless performance may be disappointing...
- I find it is best to run them at low voltages (12V or less) at which point they don't heat up at all. The motors are often capable of running from 6v to about 20v...
- Rather than power, the motors are measured on size of can and KV. KV is the speed in RPM that each volt will produce. So a 1000 KV motor will do 12,000 RPM on 12V. If it is specced as a 2824, that means it is 28mm wide and 24mm long.

- Cooling is important, and hard to specify precisely. Depends on the power being used, and the cooling technology you provide. Most brushless are designed to run in aircraft where there is lots of cooling air. For boats, you can get cooling jackets for in-runners and cooling mounts for outrunners. Having some air throughput is a good idea - but hard to arrange on a boat... Unless you are sure that you are running well below the power limits, you should use a Watt-Meter to track the power usage rather than try to calculate things. This discussion may provide an idea of how to worry about brushless motor limits:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1329612-Brushless-motor-rated-voltage
Liked by Martin555
#11

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Hi,
I know what you mean.
Anyway back to you question, unfortunately I cannot help as I myself have no experience with brushless motors, that is why I was looking at this thread with interest.
As I hoped to learn something!
The only thing I do know is that a different ESC is needed.

Martin.
If it looks right it probably is.
#10

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

This thread has been taken over for general chit-chat and is no longer relevant to my question.
Sky Diving, if at first you don't succeed, give up.
Liked by Rowen and mturpin013 and
#9

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Will do Doug, but it's down at the bottom of the Que,
HMS Amethyst is nearly finished, and USS Kidd is close behind.😐

cheers Peter
Liked by RNinMunich
#8

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Like I said Rooky, that was before I got my new goggles!
At that distance wasn't so easy to guesstimate how far behind it she was!
(Either that or there was a microcosmic black hole hiding in the buoy 😮)

Your right! Dad swan was protecting his littl'ns !


A little later he chased me out into the middle of the lake - but couldn't keep up, PHEW! 😂
Here the performance with a fresh 3S battery.


BTW: there's a full report on these 'builder's sea trials', with test results using various batteries, in my build blog (Sea Scout - Jessica) and in the Media Gallery I think.

How about a blog of what you are up to with yours? 👍
Don't often see Sea Scouts here.
Cheers, Doug 😎
Young at heart 😉 Slightly older in other places.😊 Cheers Doug
Liked by Rookysailor
#7

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Nice test run Doug, but how come you didn't see that yellow buoy?🙄 and it appears that rather large white bird (swan) was not to happy you sailing quite so close....but, lovely boat, have the same one in bits!!

cheers Peter😊
Liked by RNinMunich
#6

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Yeah well 😉 - that was before I got the new goggles! 🤓
I was pleased to see later that there wasn't a scratch on her😊
The protective auto lacquer I used on her really did it's job👍
See my Sea Scout 'Jessica' restoration Blog for details.
Cheers, Doug
Young at heart 😉 Slightly older in other places.😊 Cheers Doug
Liked by Martin555
#5

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

"A Hobbyking 3639-1100kv 800Watt on a 3S 5800mah Lipo battery with a 100Amp ESC and for a prop 2 blade 40-45mm.
If you require a faster motor a 3648-1450kv is a straight change over with all the other bits the same.
Also you can change the battery to 4S and it will be a rocket...."

How hot would that get, and what sort of cooling would be needed?

I have a number of 36mm brushless that I would like to try out, preferably with high-output NiMh batteries. The largest brushless I have is a 42mm, and I really don't know what that would be suitable for...
#4

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Hi Doug.
Nice video.
A hole lake and you still had to try and jump the ball !!

Martin.
If it looks right it probably is.
Liked by RNinMunich
#3

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Go for that Bill.
Trust Canabus, he has a lot of experience in this field.
I followed his recommendation for my 24" Sea Scout a while back and she goes like the 'proverbial' off the shovel 😉

He even sent me the relevant Hobbyking order numbers👍
Cheers, Doug😎
Young at heart 😉 Slightly older in other places.😊 Cheers Doug
Liked by Martin555
#2

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

Hi Bill
A Hobbyking 3639-1100kv 800Watt on a 3S 5800mah Lipo battery with a 100Amp ESC and for a prop 2 blade 40-45mm.
If you require a faster motor a 3648-1450kv is a straight change over with all the other bits the same.
Also you can change the battery to 4S and it will be a rocket.
Canabus
Liked by RNinMunich
#1

Brushed to Brushless upgrade

?????????????????
Sky Diving, if at first you don't succeed, give up.

Sign in to add to this thread.

Delete this post?

It will be removed from the site.

Discard this draft?

Your draft will be deleted and cannot be recovered.

You have an unfinished draft

What would you like to do with it?