Hi Simple Sailor
That would work. I did not have a system, it was pre my Taranis and FrSky days, with the modern mixing facilities but agree modern Txs allow many interesting and helpful set-ups that make control so much easier. I look forward to hearing how you progress and the set-up functions you have used.
Dave

Hi Dave. Thanks for the info. My thought was to have the jib on a winch but set up as a slave to the main sheet (Using the TX mix option) so they work together then adjust the jib with one of the side knobs on the TX. I am using an FrSky X9D plus so it has plenty of options. Plus our lake is small so for now I will be able to see the jib.

Nice scratch built model built to a high standard. Interesting positioning of the winch. My friend had a Colin Archer and fitted a separate winch and I copied to my Cariad. We both found that at any distance ( our lake is a few hundred yards across) it was almost impossible to judge which way to adjust so reverted to a free setting jib which always sets to the correct tack. Perhaps with a smaller model and a smaller lake this may not be such a problem. Good luck and please post further with your experience when sailing.

That's a lovely deck you've laid on your Dragon. You can be justifiable proud. The cockpit is pretty good too. I think that's a clever way of fitting the servo for the jib on the cabin bulkhead, but hope it doesn't get too wet.

Cheers, Nerys

Thanks. The deck planks were steamed and bent using my steam iron trick and the caulking is black card..

Very nice work👍

JB

Hi. I will follow this with interest as I am just getting to the mast and sails on my Dragon. It wasn't a kit, I just bought a hull. Rest is scratch built from pictures.. I have added an extra servo for the jib sheet as I want to see if it makes any difference to the sailing..

The rudder is in exactly the same place as per the kit. it has just been lengthened (deepened) to meet the pintle block at the base of the lead keel. the The rudder is 155 mm long.

Hi Ron,
How about lengthening the keel further aft, then hanging the rudder vertically on the keel?

Nerys

With the rudder aft, it will hang up on Canadian weeds. I try to not have rudders separate from the keel for just that reason. The blue boat is not mine, though I have one which is similar.

Hi Ron,
Raking the mast further aft will put the C of E further aft, which can't do any harm, but I think the real answer to the problem would be to mount the rudder further aft away from the keel. Wouldn't follow the plan, but who cares if she sails better that way.

Cheers, Nerys

Hi Vanya,
Interesting to see your Dragon but you haven't shown where the rudder is mounted. I wonder if you have mounted it further aft than the after end of the keel because I think that would make a difference to the handleability. I like the idea of the jibboom as well, I think that often helps in many models.

Cheers,
Nerys.

Made some alterations to rudder Servo connection, gave the mast a bit of aft angle. Now to see it on the water.😎

My post worked, Thanks Ron👍

Here are some more photos to prove that the Dragon can sail but not as it is designed by Billing’s.

The hull was moulded off an old damaged hull, filled and faired. I did nothing for 15 years and a fellow Canterbury J sailor took it and made something of it.

It’s like a classic version of a DF65 and easy to transport, fits in the car rather than the Canterbury J which it big. Also not effected by weeds!

Anyway I was happy to see something come of my hard labour’s some years ago into an attractive sailing and display model.

Here is a Billings Dragon that has been made to sail with Rc and a winch/rudder. Alterations were made to the C of Effort and the sail plan was altered to allow this. There are 24 hulls made. It is in New Zealand.

This is my first posting. Hope it works.

Yes, it has been sold, there was only one day 16 hours left when I posted.

However, there is another static model Dragon, 60cms long on a stand, looks OK ,but it's priced in Oz currency which works out to £126.77 plus £61.85 postage.

Nerys

Looks as if it sold quite quickly I can't find it now

I see there is a model Dragon for sale on Ebay. 30" long. They say it's RC, but the transmitter isn't included. £75 at the moment. One day 16 hours to go.

Nerys

Hi Ron,
Your Wianna Senior looks a nice little boat, am I right in saying she is a bit beamier than the Dragen. I think the alteration to gaff rig greatly enhances her appearance. I can't see from the picture what sort of stern she has but looks as if it is a transom which means that the rudder is on the end of the boat and has a greater effect on steering. My suggestion being that the Dragen rudder is too far inboard to have a good turning effect.

Nerys

Well, this model was more than 45 yrs old, so who knows...I shall prevail! The Wianno Senior took a longer keel and rudder than the original design plus I cut off some of the sail. Very pleased with it now.😁 It can be seen leaning over on the right side of second photo. That is it sailing.

With all the problems you are having with the manoeuvrability of your Dragen, (I hate using that name), I wonder if Billings were aware of this and it is the reason they designated the kit as a static.

Nerys

Here is how much I have already added to the rudder.

Hello Ron, I have the similar problem with my J Class yacht Endeavour the rudder stock angle is about 50 degrees and if there is a good wind I sometimes have to Wear ship, go the long way round when tacking.

I would think that 6 -8 square inches of rudder area would work for your Dragen yacht it certainly needs a larger area than the scale one on the plan. Also being at the rear of the keel and not closer to the stern it does not exert the same force as a stern rudder does.

It is all compromise for scaled down model yacht sailing, nature stays the same with water at 800 times the density of air and the volume of the model going down at a different factor to the sail area.

I had to boost the scale hull of my Endeavour with extra 3mms thickness of planking on the underwater sections and this gave me more displacement without affecting too much the shape of the hull. The sails had to be cut back as well as I could not run the model under radio control with the prototype rigging.

Also less to my liking I had to have a false keel which was a necessity, This was to 1 : 35 th scale so the model is about a metre long the upside was I was able to find a crew quite easily among the plastic kits.
regards
Roy

No it is not heeled over, it just not respond well. I will be altering the rudder linkage so it is more traditional with a control arm parallel to deck. The rudder post comes up at an odd angle(not straight up) as in many vessels. This angle makes it difficult to attach a control arm parallel to the deck.

Hello Ron I have a question for you. When your yacht fails to respond to the rudder I surmise you are wanting to tack and change course. Is the yacht heeled over say to 40 -50 degrees?

If so no increase in rudder area will help! The rudder is trying to divert water to one side or the other and using the reaction to this to turn the yacht.

But if the hull is well over then the rudder is diverting water downwards or upwards and not to the side. Neither of these forces will turn the yacht in another direction. It is acting like the elevator on an aircraft.

I am afraid the problem is too much sail area! You are heeled too far over.

If there is a nice wind for the yacht then when you go into a tack to take you through the on-coming wind the sails should be let out and as the boat comes upright the rudder is moved across. Then assuming you still have forward motion the yacht will turn easily.

Lee Ho!!! Basic dinghy sailing. I used to teach dinghy sailing to the local Sea Scouts. As soon as you are on the new course it is sails in and away.

On my son's yacht there are 2 rudders looking from the stern you can see they are splayed outwards at about 30 degrees. This is done to maintain manoeuverability when the yacht is healed over perhaps too far but sailing over the waves is a different experience to sailing on a lake. There is always one rudder relatively upright and able to change the yacht's directuin.

Hope this helps
Roy

Hi just an addition, when saling with my son in Australia we travel out on the tortuous channel from where he lives in Woy Woy out into the open sea.

Then we have to get past the headland and then beyond the Hawkesbury River and with the usual winds that blow from then on we can trim the sails just the once and almost sit back until we reach Sydney Harbour.
This is then a right turn into the harbour and under the bridge which still gives me a thrill and book into the yacht club.

The return journey is fine sailing out of the harbour but rarely easy from then on, it can be a fight for most of the way and frequently have to use the engine to get clear of Sydney.
The journey has to be timed to arrive at the channel at Broken Water as the tide is at its peak so that the 5 foot draft clears the sandy bottom.

regards
Roy

Hi I have been sailing a hull I bought bare with just a mast. Like Ron I used the sails from another yacht. I did the calculations and had to move the mast from the position it was in aft about an inch and a half (40mms).

I blocked off the hole with wood dowel and drilled a new one. That was over a year ago and she sails very well, balanced with only minimal use of the rudder to keep her on course but otherwise she goes to windward straight as a die hands off the controls.

I have a second and very similar hull to get sailing and this will probably be gaff rigged. I cut out tracing paper sets of sails and work out the relative sail areas between sails and find the collective centre of area.

I also work out the centre of lateral resistance of the hull and set them up as I have said before.
I have a formula I use for working out how much sail area I need and adjust and move the paper sails until I have the balance I am looking for. This is about half a days work. Lately I have been making my own sails.

For the Dragen yacht with a scale shallow keel I would start with about 300 square inches of sail, with a nice breeze she should heel over 20 - 30 degrees and hold a steady course. A larger sail area is only of use with very light winds. The plans I have of the Bluebottle show 3 suits of sails.

So my next one will be my 9th. model yacht where I have had to sort out or change the sail rig and I can honestly say that they all work and have needed no other changes. I have 4 others where the sails were already worked out or supplied with the yacht.

Time spent at the beginning gives more enjoyable sailing time. I must add I only do it for fun! I can only pass on what works for me, select or reject as you will.
regards
Roy

Well, to answer your question, I chose the dragonforce mast, and sail because it was available...a gift that came with another sailboat. I looked at the sail plan for the kit, saw it to be similar, and went with it, just for fun. It is for my own pleasure, I do not race, and only sail with my grandsons when we go to the beach. So, thanks, for the technical information, I will apply your suggestions and give it a go again.

Hello Ron, just trying to help, I have an Inga IV and that looks similar to your yacht underwater. The rudder is quite large but the sail area is not overlarge and reasonably balanced and she does turn OK.

I have wondered why it is thought you can just take a set of sails from a different yacht and fit them on a hull and expect the yacht to sail. The check I suggested I standby as it should help balance the yacht.

On full size yachts there is a lot of calculation to decide the relative sail areas of the whole sail area. When I have sailed with my son on his 40 foot yacht he is forever trimming the sails and with a furled large jib there is a lot of fine tuning to get the best speed and direction.
The same goes for a model yacht, my previous suggestions will give you a stable sailing model. However I know that if you are racing you do need a different approach to create a more responsive set up.

I wish you success, the Dragen is a great looking yacht look forward to seeing her sailing.
regards
Roy

My M-12 (see photo) comes about very well, as does the Folksboat and Wianno Senior. This Dragen hull should react similarly.

By saying this is a long keel design, do you mean depth or bow to stern? Because it’s draft is shallow.

Hello Ron, Nerys this is a long keel design and you cannot expect this kind of underwater shape to do anything else than try and go straight ahead.
The c of e of the sails should be about 4% ahead of the c of lr of the hull. If it is not then the rudder will have an almost impossible job to turn the hull.
A sort of test would be to have the rudder central and set the sails at 30 degrees and see if she sails a steady course about 50 degrees off the wind.
If she falls off the wind move the mast with sails forward and if she comes up into wind with the sails flapping, then move the mast aft. (I hope I have that the right way round)!
This should balance up the yacht and the rudder can actually have some effect.
regards
Roy

I am going to be re-fitting the rudder control the current design doesn’t give enough movement. Even with the rudder extension the boat will not come about quickly. It turns like a huge sluggish vessel.

I just ordered these sails and the mast kits to go with it.

https://www.tmrcboatyard.com/product/jos881509-sail-set-a/

https://www.tmrcboatyard.com/product/jos881531-rig-assembly-a-no-sails/

The instructions said to glue the deck on before planking the hull...If you are considering building this kit or any other which says to attach deck before planking...Do Not! If, I had followed the instructions, I’d have lost the placement for clamps. Use your experience and best modelling experience.

Hi Ron,
It's good to see interest being shown in the Dragon yacht. I'm currently building from a nexus plan a 1/10th scale which according to the notes was 'designed' by A E Palmer with permission from Camper & Nicholson's plans of the Bluebottle which they built, and as you know was sailed by Prince Philip. I'm currently planking the hull, when that's completed i'll do a water test and check out the waterline is approximately where it should be. After that I'll post my progress with pictures. As previously mentioned I'm building it with a 'drop lead keel' in order to get the centre of buoyancy lower than where the plan advises it, so it can carry full sail, and in my case wanting to rig it with a genoa jib, so the scale sail area will be at max.
Tony A....

Hi Roy,

Pleased that you should mention the Dragon Bluebottle. She was a wedding present to the Queen and D of E from the Island Sailing Club of Cowes. She was seriously campaigned by her professional crew, with the Duke frequently joining them She became a bit of an ambassador for the class periodically joining Dragon fleets in various parts of the country , to 'show the flag'. We had one of the biggest fleets of Dragons in the country at Medway Yacht Club and Bluebottle joined us for a few weeks in, I would think 1954/55. We very much appreciated the honour of her presence despite the fact that the Duke was not on her. I raced against her in Hai Lung for those few weeks. She is still very much in existence and is moored on the pontoon of the National Maritime Museum in Falmouth and is regularly sailed around Falmouth Bay.

Cheers, Nerys

Hi Ron,
Personally, I think it is a very good idea to use the mast and sails from a Dragonforse or similar model if it looks near enough to what the original should be. I think the Dragonforce mainsail may have a slightly higher aspect ratio than a Dragon, bit I cannot see it matters and saves a lot of work. I've used the keels and fins from RTR model yachts on other models , even sailing barges, who cares as long as it works well.

Cheers, Nerys

I used the old Dragonforce95 mast and sail for a sailboat I made last year. It worked very well.

This kit contained no mast, just the fittings. What mast material (wood) would you recommend?

I might just use the Dragonforce 95 on this sailboat too, they are interchangeable.

I have now started a Building Blog as of yesterday. To answer your question, yes I plan to sail it. As on my previous open cockpit sailboat, it will have a clear plastic cover over the cockpit to keep water out.

Your comments and information is interesting, I would like to hear more, especially the various types of sails.

I have done no research, which is not common for me.

Hi Ron and Tony, are your Dragen yachts static or for sailing?

Over 20 years ago now I was asked to build a Dragon Class yacht by Int. Mar. Modelling but using a ready made glass fibre hull about to be marketted. It was with a view to have a sailing model.

Don't get excited, when I received it the hull was very heavy with the hull about 5mms thick. I had an Inga IV hull at the time and it was 50% heavier than the much bigger Inga IV..

It was too heavy to have a lead keel and float any where near the waterline. I did give them feedback but no response, the model yacht was never built (by agreement) but I had done a lot of research including a visit to builders in Essex.

Most Dragons are open cockpit however there are a few non-racing ones with a closed in one. As you will know they are a Norwegion design from 1929 and were used in the Olympics as a class from 1948 until 1972.

Always regarded as a handsome design that has stood the test of time. Sarik carry a plan called Bluebottle which was the Dragon Class yacht which was presented to the D of Edinburough. The plans were in Model Maker many years ago together with a write up on building.

These plans show several sail plans and for a sailing model I would suggest the smallest set of sails as best.

I later had experience with a metre long sailing model of the UK Americas Cup Endeavour our 1934 entry. This was grossly over canvassed and benefits from cutting back the sails.

Sailing boats can look very nice heeled over but the most efficient way to sail is to be as upright as possible.

Regards

Roy

Probably should move this to a building blog.

Sorry I may start a fishing boat one elsewhere.

I know they have Dragon boats wonder if they have Dragon fishing boats? 😇

Exit left chased by a dragon. ⚡😮

Roy

This is getting off the topic of Dragen...building.

Hi as far as the Mary Ann model goes I am finishing the rigging and need to glue down a couple of items and I will post some pictures.

The boat is twinned with another Mary Ann so they can go fishing together! Tried to keep them a little different. I did need to match their speeds. One had a monoperm and the other a similar clone.

However on similar voltages they ran at different speeds in the water so the fast one had a down sized propellor and they run about right now.

The esc's I use for small motors are incredibly cheap and very small. Just 28mm x 19 x 8mm they do have different connectors as they use the same type as used for 2 pin rx to battery ones. They have an internal BEC. I bought extra made up wires to suit very cheaply.

I order them as 10 amp brushed W/O brake and the last time they were about £3.00 ea. I would not go above 5 amps but they run on 4 - 7 cells.

regards

Roy

Hi lovely as they are Taycol wound field motors are not good for RC due to electrical interference. There is a possible exception and that is with 2.4 Ghtz,

There is a big but, and that is the motor would still interfere with other RC model boats not on 2.4G.

Have you seen my reversing circuit using a full wave rectifier? I say my, I proposed it as an exercise about 20+ years ago on this site in its original form.

Regards

Roy

Very nice job Roy👍
Would like to see some pics of your Mary Ann conversion, as I have a stalled project to convert a Billing Gina 2 fish cutter. So far I have restored and strengthened the hull, and cut out the bulkheads to make space for motor and RC gear.
Project is stalled at 'how to get the motor (a restored Taycol Target) coupled to the prop shaft so low down in the hull!
I blogged the progress on the hull thus far,
https://model-boats.com/blogs/43305
Cheers, Doug 😎

Hi thanks for the tip on using polyester resin I have not used it before. Is it a liquid and hardener and then thinned down?

I do kit rescues if I fancy the boat and have just converted a Billing Mary Ann from static to working but otherwise I now just build from plans.

I also only use the wood I have accumulated over the years, my last 2 boats were from this wood so only glue and paint were purchased.

I have many electric motors (close to 100) which I am using as well.

About 6 years ago I completed a model boat called "Dolphin" for a lady who had found the model with just the hull built and then left unfinished but with the plans.

Her husband had died and she wanted a memento. It is from the 1950s and I fitted a black and orange Hectoperm motor so that it was authentic if anyone knowledgable had a look inside. I said to her if the model ever has to be scrapped rescue the motor, it is quite rare.

I hope the photo is big enough!

regards

Roy

Hi Ron - getting along nicely - as Roy said nice to see an old kit built . Tempted to build P87 a Billings PT boat of an even earlier vintage . Have spare old Obeche planking which is what Billings used then - being lazy would draw up the parts for cutting on the laser.............

Roy - if you need a smooth finish for painting try using thinned polyester resin - between 20 & 30 % . Try it on a scrap piece first to make sure it sets - over the years have found that depending on the make can vary from 10% to 30% thinners - but at 10% does not sink into the wood well. Don't use it on deck planking obviously.............

Not really, I am faced with a typical Billings kit of that era. 1 page of English instructions and limited drawings. No drawings for building the deck structures, just join parts 37-44 and enjoy!

Used the scrollsaw today and cut the parts from the printed sheets. Then using Titebond III glued up parts 13 & 14 to A, clamped it all up be fore going on a hunt for Part B.