Thanks for the support

Yves

Guys
I used brushed motors just cos I am getting old and stick to technology I know but a little piece of advice, Brushed motors can be a law unto themselves. Take a 540 lower turns on the motor = less rpm and greater torque. But a be careful here read the motor specs! Some of them won't even give you enough info to make a decision so stay away. Brushed Motor can normally run between 6 to 12 Volts. Most manufacturers use 7.2 to 12 Volts MFA motors are more efficient at 12 Volts also look at current draw as some of our Chinese manufacturers use a lot of power. Now we can take an MFA motor and stick a gearbox in such as MFA do and the ratio of the box ie 6:1 will take the original torque and multiply it by 6👍👍

Re - We all had to start somewhere with Brushless

Re in-runners Doug, mainly used in cars and racing boats etc (with cooling jackets), not particularly useful in planes (except the occasional screaming foam delta - pic) Mainly out-runners in planes for more torque and easier cooling (ie - you can run smaller props with bigger pitch). The 28mm 2000kv in-runners in my HSL got hot real quick just free running on the bench, so had to fit jackets. Out-runners will also get hot in a plane when run up for a period on the ground, and need to get in the air asap.

The only in-runner I have in a plane now is the finned 2100kv 28/45mm (in a 60s Graupner 'Terry' I reproduced) due to low ground clearance (prop size) kv and ease of fitting. Stays quite cool because of where it is. (it's from when HK sold good motors 10 yrs ago) Had it, tried it, it worked so I kept it. Delta (German Multiplex Pico jet) was horrendously noisy at 85mph. (3900kv, 6" prop - around 30,000 rpm on 2s!) Not allowed to make noise any more☹️

For scale boats I prefer brushed motors, as they are cheap to buy/replace compared to brushless (brushed ESCs are generally cheaper also). The brushed motors with bearings and serviceable brushes are good value, and as you say, brushed have a good range of speed ratings/turns to choose from (as do brushless). They can also sound quite good in a twin set-up I think.
JB

Hi Andy,

Wise words indeed, I very nearly made that mistake. Even though I've been following this site on and off for years, it went straight out of my head, now looking closely at motors before I buy anything.

Bill

Doug,
Talking an immense amount of sense with that post.

I totally agree with your 'read the specs' part. With so many users buying off the web, the temptation to buy the cheapest, say, '380, or 540', straight off the shelf can cause endless problems.

Don't assume that one brushed or brushless motor with the same 'id' and type markings is in fact the same. Stall currents and volts draw are markedly different on some of the 'low cost' options out there.

To replace your fried ESC will always be more expensive than the time it takes to check out the spec sheet.

You must ALWAYS have in line fuse, but remember cheapest may cost a lot more in the long run.

Andy

Hi Doug,

Many thanks for that it's greatly appreciated, and it certainly has given me a lot more information than I could find anywhere else, it felt like the deeper i dug the deeper the hole became....if you know what I mean😊, I've seen people ask basic questions on other sites and just got a lot of snottiness in response (I think they all forgot they had to learn as well) that's the major difference between here and other sites, everyone is very helpful and friendly here, I know that I can ask questions and get help in return, I've certainly learned a lot in the past couple of weeks, not just with the guys giving me help and advice but by going through past builds, there really is a wealth of knowledge here-my thanks to all.

Bill

Hi Bill,
We all had to start somewhere with Brushless (with Brushed too, way back when😁).
It's not rocket science and has been discussed frequently on the site.
Brushless type numbers have 4 basic digits XXYY where XX is the diameter in mm and YY the motor body length in mm. Then a kV number. This is the number of rpm (off load!) per Volt applied. In general; Lower kV number means a slower revving higher torque motor, higher kV a faster revving high speed and lower torque motor.
So as 'Rule of Thumb'; short fat low kV for tug towing, longer thinner high kV for fast planing hulls.😉
Different manufacturers add extra number numbers or letters to designate a particular motor series or maybe max power in watts.
Then there's Inrunner and Outrunner!
The jury is still out on which is best for model boats😉
The Inrunner is easier to mount and cool cos you can treat it just like a brushed motor.
As the name implies with an Outrunner the outer casing spins round a fixed core, meaning it can only be mounted and cooled through the end mounting plate.
My personal opinion is that, unless you are building a fast Offshore Power Boat racer or Hydroplane racer, for high speed, high current short duration racing Inrunners are best left to the fly-boys.
With the right choice of kV, prop size (roughly same as motor diameter) and battery voltage I have never needed to cool my Outrunners.😉
Weight is also often a factor in smaller models. With a brushless you get 'More Oomph per Ounce'.😀

Don't forget that even with brushed motors there are various types with the same basic number (can size). But different performance depending on how the armature is wound!
E.g. there are 540s ranging from about 5000rpm torquey to 22000 or more rpm screamers!!
Read the specs before you buy!!
Whatever motor type you fit don't forget to put a fuse in line with the ESC + supply wire.
Fuse rating at least 10-20% less than the stall current of the motor or the max continuous current of the ESC. Otherwise: 🚤🔥😭

That's the simple basics for beginners, as I also was with brushless 3 years ago.
Hope this helps demystify a little.
Cheers, Doug 😎

Hi Doug,

I fully understand where Ygagnon is coming from, with brushed motors you are at least starting with a known, i.e the can size, so you know roughly what you are dealing with with regards to oomph, I still don't have a clue what the numbers on a brushless motor represent. I will figure it out, but I'll wait until after my head stops hurting/spinning 😊, but for now I'm strictly in the brushed camp.
Bill

"I have tried brushless on a hovercraft model and I believe it is more complicated. "
Did you turn it into a helicopter Ygagnon?😮😁
More complicated!?
You only have to connect one more wire than with a brushed motor!
Doug 😎

Hi Ygagnon,
Yeah I know where you are coming from, I went from frustrated to frazzled to bamboozled, in the end I gave up on it and went for what I understood, and by all accounts, for a tug Brushed is the way to go-thankfully. After all brushed motors have been used for a long time and apart from some minor maintenance worked perfectly well, so that's good enough for me.

Bill

I have tried brushless on a hovercraft model and I believe it is more complicated.

Hi everyone, thank you for your advice and words of encouragement. I've been busy on Howes website, just waiting to find out a cost for carriage now, then I'll have to hand over the loot, but most of it will be one off costs since I'm starting out from scratch, plus I'll be getting everything with one order which is a major bonus. on My springer I've cut out the sides and hot glued them together along with the template so that I can run them through the scroll saw and then a final sanding to shape, it's starting to rain here so I won't get much else done today, but now that I've finally made a start I'm feeling good. I reckon it'll probably take about a week for the howe's stuff to arrive so I'll have the hull put together by then. I've decided to follow the good advice given here and go with brushed motors, but I want to control the motors seperately so it'll be 2 esc's and a mixer. I found my digital camera so I've taken a few photos-the lead to download the pictures is a different story, but I'll find it 😊

Joe,
I found your build blog, very detailed thank you, a lot of good ideas (some of which I'll shamelessly use 😊), on the picture of the springer with the ramp, it looks like the wheel house is sitting on top of a framework and clear underneath, interesting, I might use that, your plasticard work was very impressive. The main plan did make me realise that I'll have to be careful with my internal layout, the space disappears real fast.

Bill

Bill,
Forgot to add, I did a build blog a while back for my Springer Tug. Do a search in the build blogs for "rescue tug", hope it helps.
Joe 😎

Good luck with your springer tug build. I attached a drawing that I found online somewhere, this is what I used for my build. Hope it helps.
Joe 😎

Hi Doug - been there and done all of that!
Happy to help guide others from following in my footsteps.
Rowen

Bill,
As a matter of purely personal preference, I've always used good old fashioned brushed motors. I like the 'grunt', one ESC (as long as stall amps are covered) and easy to swap out if one fails- cos generally they are cheaper!
Hope you go well with the build - I'm getting my new boat soon and am also starting build log No.1 when I get going.
What I can say is the warmth and mountain of help from other members should ensure that any foul ups we make are dealt with via good teaching and a bit of rib tickling! Me, for one, like the humour and community that you find here.
Andy

Wise words Rowen👍
Doug 😎

Bill,
Should also have added, with brushed you can get away with one ESC to control both motors.
With brushless one ESC per motor is needed. In my mind your choice is the right one, even without considering the reduced investment.
Rowen

Looking forward to seeing your first build log.
Good luck.


Martin555.

Hi RH,

Thank you, that's good to know, I'll be using 17mm thick plywood for the sides just because that's what I have here, so it will be a heavy boat, looks like the 540's have won the day, phew lucky choice 😊, My plan is to build the hull and superstructure from what I have lying around without spending anything, as I will have to buy the running gear and R/C equipment with this being my first boat.

Regards

Bill

Hi Andy,

Many thanks for the info, that's helped a lot to clear the fog, looking at the pro's and con's there, I think I might go with the brushed option (easier for me to understand and cheaper 😊). I forgot that brushed motors are classed by can size rather than what the motor can do, and I think that brushless motors have even more options - I'll need to spend some time looking at brushless motors in general to improve my understanding I think.
I'll go with 2 X 540 motors and 50mm props and I'll try to find high torque v low(er) speed motors or maybe just use a belt drive... I'll have to build it first. This will be my first build log - in fact my first build 😊, I found hull templates on the site, which I saved, but unfortunately I can't remember who posted them, a few of the guys here have built them so there's lots of good info and ideas to be had, but I'll put my own spin on it.
Regards
Bill

Have built several models, some with brushed and some brushless.
My experience is that for the slower, heavier vessels prefer the tractability of brushed.
For planing hulls prefer the performance of brushless, preferably outrunners with their higher torque.

Bill,

It's still a matter of personal preference:
A trawl through the web brings up a useful basic comparison-:

Brushed

Low overall construction costs;
Can often be rebuilt to extend life;
Simple and inexpensive controller;
Controller not needed for fixed speed;
Ideal for extreme operating environments.

Brushless
Less overall maintenance due to lack of brushes;
Operates effectively at all speeds with rated load;
High efficiency and high output power to size ratio;
Reduced size with far superior thermal characteristics;
Higher speed range and lower electric noise generation.

As for equivalence, well that depends on your use of each motor.
All motors have specs published (amps, torque, dimensions etc). So unfortunately, whilst I haven't come across direct comparisons between brushed and brushless of the same size, it really doesn't matter because, it's what you want to do with it that will govern your choice.

Andy