@AlessandroSPQR
Ok then. I wasn't sure from your description of J J Lad's vessel if you could put the machinery under the deck. Your solution would be even less equipment on deck.

@RossM
Hi Ross.
Yes, of course—the drum winch is always located below the deck; there is absolutely no need to place it on the deck itself.
I thought I had been clear in my description and the drawing. I must have explained myself poorly—please forgive me.
What ends up being visible (and perhaps not very attractive to look at) is the track.
That applies to the solution I proposed.

If, on the other hand, we are talking about JJ Lad’s solution, the winch and drum can be tucked away below deck or suitably concealed beneath a low superstructure.

The track you’ve built is highly functional, but it has to be placed on the deck, where it remains visible.

@AlessandroSPQR
I am working on the bench test of the JIBS servo. It will use GARY WEBB'S system. I will update when I get it running

Alessandro

Just 3 ideas
#1 photo
I don't think that you must have the drum on deck .Depending on the width you need to bring the boom over, you might be able to go from side to side with long arms on the servo. Are you planing to use a traveller? If the servo with arms or a drum is below deck the lines can simply enter the deck under the traveller, tie to a ring on the traveller, exit the deck on the OTHER SIDE of the traveller, and back to the servo, (drum or arm). The servo will drag the ring from side to side.

#2 photo
The sheet is shown in red. It would enter the deck from the centre line, travel THROUGH the ring and continue on to the boom.

#3 photo
This is from the bench test of the BLUENOSE triple block and main boom. In the lower left is the eye screw used to change direction of the sheet. There is very little friction with 0.34mm KEVLAR braided thread. (that brown blur on the lower right is the main boom's triple block)

So, if you don't want the drum on deck, put it below deck, and pass the ring control line through eye screws or eye bolts to change direction. KEVLAR is elastic enough that there will not be slack in THE RING LOOP.

0.34mm KEVLAR:
- almost invisble, (light brown and thin),
- strong (about 10 pounds break strength),
- elastic (good tension in loop)

Here are a few systems that I admire and am currently evaluating.

The first one I’ll show is likely familiar to most of you; it’s the system designed by the brilliant, engaging, and ingenious Gary Webb.
The results speak for themselves: exceptional tacking in tight spaces, regardless of wind conditions. Truly spectacular.
I don’t think I’ll adopt it for my future schooner, however, as I lack the space to set up a continuous-loop control system like that.

The second example comes from an exceptional modeler, the Canadian JJ Lad, who possesses superb craftsmanship and outstanding technical skills. He converted the 1:84 scale Panart/Mantua kit of the Amerigo Vespucci into an RC model.
It was an incredibly difficult task, executed in an exemplary fashion—and, as far as my current research shows, it is a unique achievement. No one else has ever done it.
I’ve taken a particular interest in his control system for the spanker (or driver) sail.
I might implement something similar for my own future schooner, as these vessels often used two sheets—rather than just one—attached to the boom.

Good evening to all ship modelers, especially those with a passion for sailing.

This is a potential alternative—and perhaps an improvement—to the system I’ve been using for boom control.
I’ve already discussed this with Ross, who consistently provides invaluable ideas and insights regarding sail control systems; he is a true asset to this forum.

In addition to the main drum winch (which can be replaced by an arm servo, if preferred), this setup includes an arm servo designed to move the sheet attachment point along a track.
The main drum winch is used to sheet in or ease out the sail, while the arm servo shifts the ring—through which the sheet passes as it emerges from the hull—to either the starboard or port side of the vessel.

While it could work, the mechanism is highly visible on the deck; from an aesthetic and historical-accuracy standpoint, this type of traveler might be unsuitable for many styles of schooners.

By positioning the sheet attachment point entirely to one side—for instance, to starboard—and sheeting in tightly, the boom should be forced to remain on that side, regardless of the vessel’s movement or the wind.
The goal of this system is to assist the rudder during tacking maneuvers, particularly in situations where the rudder lacks the authority to turn the model at low speeds.
Naturally, this must be tested thoroughly before being installed on a model.

If the drawing and the explanation are not clear, that is certainly my fault, so please feel free to ask.

Tomarack So I really don't understand ! But I will give it my best shot Col

Hello tomarack Thanks once again for all the much needed information , Col

@ColRay I don't remember the original source exactly anymore.Pict
2-4 my construction. Lever arm are free . I use a Hitec HS-765 SERVO SAIL ARM Servo for the mainsail sheet. I accidentally found the source for semaphore jib -see.

@tomarack
Thanks, I use the lever-servo on the DF65 &RG65.

To get the scale effect on the schooner mainsheet, the sheet travel is 260 inches. It takes 10 seconds to go in or out. The foresail is about a quarter of that

@tomarack
Hi Tomarack, thanks for sharing your thoughts, photos, and diagrams.

Personally, I have some reservations about using a sail arm servo instead of a drum winch; for the time being, I’ve opted for the drum winch because I didn't have enough room in the hull for the arm's full range of motion.
To make the best use of space, you really need to mount it off-center, just as you did. I’m not a fan of asymmetrical layouts and avoid them whenever possible.
Of course, that’s just my personal preference; in your case, the arm servo setup is highly effective and functional—well done.
Regarding the other issues we’ve discussed in detail, I noticed that you have a rather large rudder.

Hello tomarack do you have a better quality image of the center plan ? Col

Hello Tom just love the Thames Barge, I had thought about sailing my barge , then because of the age of the model , she's over 50 years old thought better of it.
I could be using the arm and servo system on my latest project the two masted 3D printed model Col

@tomarack next photos my model Capricorn
Lever arm servos- Peter Simmonds TSB Veronica model (GB)

@RossM
Hi,When I built my first model of a Thames sailing barge, I used a sail winch and a lever servo for the jib and vangs. For my subsequent models, I used only lever servos for the mainsails and a "semaphore jib" mechanism for the jib.
Ultimately, it is a matter of personal choice. I was recommended an lever arm servo, and I used it on my boat for both the mainsail and the top of sprit (vang). I find that there is real strength in simplicity—the sail can be quickly adjusted to the desired position, something a standard winch simply does not allow.
Pict nr 4 - Peter Simmonds model TSB Veronica (GB)
5+6 - my TSB Capricorn
Tom

Good evening to all ship modelers.

I will now move on to discuss mainsail control systems.
First, I’ll cover the system I used myself; then, a possible alternative solution; and finally, the highly efficient methods used by two excellent ship modelers who run a very interesting YouTube channel.

The first diagram shows a very simple mainsail control system.
I have included photos and videos so you can see how it works.
The sheets do not tangle—so the system works well in that regard—but the issue of tacking remains.

As you can notice, the control system for the mainmast boom differs slightly from the one used for the foremast boom.

On the foremast boom, the end of the sheet is anchored to the deck (where I adjust its length); the sheet runs beneath the boom through small eyelets, then descends alongside the mast and enters the deck through a small hole right next to the mast base. Below deck, it reaches the winch via a system of pulleys.

On the mainmast boom, the end of the sheet is attached directly to the boom itself; from there, the sheet goes straight into a hole in the deck. Below deck, it reaches the winch via a system of pulleys.

In the next post, I will present some alternatives to this setup.

@AlessandroSPQR Thinking further;
This comes with a limit. The sail can not swing past the holes on either side of the deck, where the sheets enter the deck. This would best be used as the lowest jib of many jibs. The upper jibs can swing out further on their own servos.
If you are looking to power the jib to the other side of the deck this will help.

@RossM
Thanks a lot, Ross, for the written explanation and the drawing you made.

@AlessandroSPQR
First: the concept of 2 winches attached to the same drive, from my STAYSAIL WINCH. If you blow up that photo to maximum and look at the 2 lines off the 2 winches, you will see one line comes off the top of the drum the other line comes of the bottom of the other drum. Too big for what you want

Second: the idea of stacking 2 sail drums to a servo.

The basic theory is that the drums work opposite directions to each other. One drum pulls in while the other pays out

@RossM
Thanks for the idea, Ross.
If you can make a sketch (even a rough, freehand one—no need for it to look polished), it’s easier to visualize and remember.

@AlessandroSPQR

Sorry nothing in my files


The short video I made on the STAYSAIL does that. One side slacks off while the other side draws in

IDEA:

Use the basic drum servo eg 3 and a half turns
Instead of my large motor driven winch, STACK 2 drums on the servo, instead of the usual one, lower drum goes out to port, upper drum goes out to starboard

Good evening to all ship modelers.

I believe that a scale boat or ship capable of executing a sharp turn using its rudder will have no issues with the systems described so far.

However, on some models, the rudder isn't large enough, so it might be helpful to assist tacking and gybing maneuvers using the sails.

The diagram shows a possible control system for the jib (or jibs) using two winches instead of one.

When the boat is sailing on a port tack (with sails positioned on the starboard side), the sheet on the port winch will be fully extended, meaning it has no effect on the jib's control or trim.
Conversely, the starboard winch's sheet will be adjusted according to the point of sail (fully sheeted in for close-hauled, fully eased out for a broad reach or running downwind).

When executing a tack, the rudder will try to bring the bow to port to switch to a starboard tack.
By fully easing the starboard sheet and sheeting in the port one, the jib is forced to the other side—not just by the wind, but also by the winch's pulling force on the sheet.
Admittedly, there is a risk of the jib getting "back-winded" and the tack failing, but the sail will remain on the side we want.

I haven't tried this system yet; it would need to be tested in practice.
The hope is that by forcibly positioning the jibs and mainsails on the opposite tack (using the power of the winches), we can assist the rudder's action.

I can't say more until I've put it into practice.

@RossM
This image taken from the internet was already in message no. 28.
I meant a photo taken by you.

But I found one!!

@AlessandroSPQR

Sorry, nothing on hand

@RossM
If you have any photos, could you please post them, Ross?

@AlessandroSPQR
I have also seen the RACETRACK system with solid string on the loop and the end wheel is spring loaded

...Sorry, I wanted to edit post #28 to add two more images, but as a basic member, I can't do that after 24 hours.
That’s why I had to create a new post.

Good evening to all ship modelers.

Before moving on to the jib control system, I wanted to share a few systems I’ve come across.
I hope you, too, can contribute other diagrams and images to share.

I’ve noticed that to prevent the drum winch from causing line tangles inside the hull when the sails are eased, RC modelers almost always use a continuous, tensioned closed-loop system, assisted by a spring or elastic band (as shown in the attached diagrams).
The winch drives this main loop, keeping it constantly taut; the individual jib sheets are then attached to this loop and led up to the deck, significantly reducing the risk of fouling or tangling.
This is the system used, for example, by Gary Webb.
The renowned designer, modeler, and YouTuber Gary Webb (founder of Bearospace Industries and the popular YouTube channel Sail Tails: Building model sailing boats with Gary Webb designs) is famous in the RC modeling community precisely for his sail control system for scratch-built schooners (such as his celebrated Irene and Annie models).
Gary Webb’s system employs a single winch servo to control a continuous closed loop (known as a "racetrack loop") that runs from stern to bow beneath the deck.
All the schooner’s sails (mainsail, foresail, and jibs) connect to this single line via small clips or knots.

Many modelers use a dummy boom beneath the foresail, and some forgo having the jibs cross over the foresail.

The Robbe Valdivia system uses a rack of metal rings instead of a rope loop.

In all these systems, however, the jib can still be mechanically sheeted in by the winch. The winch merely facilitates and controls the easing of the sheet, but the force required to bring the jib into position comes solely from the wind.
The tack change will also be dictated by the wind.

Alessandro No the sail system on my Thames Barges was just a block and ring running over a deck horse starboard/ port, slight adjustments were carried out before setting sail Col

@ColRay
Thanks, Col—you're too kind.

Have you ever worked on sail trimming systems? If so, I’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas on the subject.

P.S. Remember, we always need to keep our minds sharp. And racking your brain to solve a problem is excellent exercise—hahahaha.

Alessandro The quality of your build is fantastic Col

@AlessandroSPQR
I recognize that problem with the staysail

@RossM

Yes, it can be done, Ross—both with the system I illustrated and used, and with another method I have in mind but haven't yet put into practice (which I’ll post as soon as possible).
However, the overlap between the jib and the staysail must be minimal—kept to the absolute minimum—to allow the clew to cross over to the other side, passing over the forestay of the underlying jib.

@AlessandroSPQR
So it looks like you can bring your JIB TOPSAIL over the top of your JIB? That is also something I must be able to do. I like the route of the MAINSHEET. Where does it go after it goes BACK to the deck astern of the drum winch?

Good evening to all ship modelers.

To better explain the system shown in the diagram and described in post #17, I am attaching a few images.
The red arrows in all the images indicate the jib sheets.
The blue arrows in all the images indicate the mainsail sheet (for the mainmast). This is not relevant to the current discussion but is included solely to distinguish it and avoid confusion.
It is evident, then, that the same forward-mounted winch controls both the jibs and the mainmast sails.
The green circle indicates the fixed points on the deck where the ends of the jib sheets are attached.
The yellow circle indicates the tiny holes in the deck through which the two jib sheets pass below deck before being led to the winch drum.
In the final image, the yellow arrows with red outlines indicate these holes.
It may be hard to see, but the jib sheets pass through a small ring at the respective clews; they are not fixed there but are free to slide.

@RossM

I think so too, Ross; I believe you're right, even though I've never actually tested it myself.

However, I’d like to play devil's advocate for the drum winch. Compared to an arm servo, the winch takes up less space and, above all, controls the line more smoothly.

@AlessandroSPQR
Will this work close hauled? A long arm on a 180 degree servo might allow you to omit the drum for the jib servo

@ColRay
Thanks, Col; yes, that’s one of the most common systems I’ve seen, even though I’m not particularly fond of it.

Good morning to all ship modelers!

I was looking for some videos I had seen of RC square-rigged sailing ship models (which are actually quite rare), but I can't find them anymore.

In the meantime, I will proceed with the sail control systems, moving on to the jib adjustment.

In real-life recreational boats, the jib has two sheets attached to the clew: one leeward and one windward.
When, for example, the boat is on a port tack (meaning the wind hits the left side of the boat first and the sail sets to the right), the windward sheet (in this case, the left one) is slack and does not affect the jib's trim. The leeward sheet (in this case, the right one), however, controls the trim: pulled in tight for close-hauled sailing and let out fully for reaching or running.
On a starboard tack, it is exactly the opposite.


The system I used [though I don't consider it ideal and would like to improve it for my next RC sailing model]

The first sketch (again, a quick hand-drawn sketch, though I plan to redo it better) shows a simplified top-down view of the system I used.
The sheet (red line) starts from a fixed point on the deck, passes through the jib's clew, and enters a small hole in the deck; from there, after passing through a few fairleads, it reaches the winch.
Note that the sheet is not tied to the clew but is free to slide through a small ring.
This way, whether the sheet is pulled tight or fully let out, the jib is free to move to the right or left (free to tack, in other words) depending on the wind direction. By operating the radio-controlled winch, the sheet can be hauled in or eased out to suit the desired point of sail (close-hauled, beam reach, broad reach, or running).
A quick clarification: in this specific case, I was controlling two jibs. Consequently, the sheets from the individual jibs entered through two separate deck openings and only joined up below deck into a single line that wrapped around the winch drum.



Issues associated with this system

Changing tacks (for example, when turning from a close-hauled course on one side to a close-hauled course on the other) is achieved solely via the rudder.

If there is sufficient momentum and the rudder action successfully turns the boat, the jib (or jibs) will naturally shift to the side opposite the wind source (just as on real boats).
With this system, therefore, there is no way to force the jib to the other side by operating the winch.

Once the jib has crossed to the other side, the sail is trimmed for the specific point of sail (close-hauled, beam reach, broad reach, or running) by hauling in or easing the sheet using the winch.

In this setup, hauling in (trimming the sheet) is driven by the winch's mechanical action, whereas easing it out (facilitated by the winch rotating in reverse) relies on the force of the wind.

This system could potentially use a standard servo with a control arm instead of a drum winch, though I have never tried that myself.

What do you think? What system have you used so far?

Alessandro Back in my Perth club model making days one of the guys had a box sail rigger and the yard arm was fixed and the mast would turn, from memory it worked fine Col

@RossM
That's perfectly fine, Ross, thanks.

The first sail control system I am considering is the one for the square sail.

I should note that I haven't actually built this yet, as the square sail on my previous model was fixed and could not be controlled.

In a real ship, the yard is controlled (shifted to the left or right) by running rigging known as braces.
The sail itself is adjusted using the tack and the sheet.

In modeling, we can simplify this by combining the controls for the braces and the tack/sheet.

The diagram (a quick sketch, though I plan to redraw it properly) shows the setup from an overhead view.
I envisioned using a single winch (a standard servo arm would likely be unsuitable here) with two drums.
One drum winds the sheet (connected to the corresponding brace) for the left side, while the other winds the tack (connected to the corresponding brace) for the right side—or vice versa, depending on the wind direction.
Rotating the winch in one direction winds up one line while unwinding the other; reversing the rotation produces the opposite effect, causing the yard to pivot around the mast.

I believe a system like this could work.

I look forward to any comments, images, or videos you might have regarding systems that have already been built.

My next post will cover the system for maneuvering and adjusting the jib.

@AlessandroSPQR is it too much. . .? I know you said BRIEF. I did edit some descriptions out

Thanks, Ross. I thought you were going to include the photos, videos, and a brief written summary, but instead you reposted every single message exactly as they were—hahaha, that's awesome. You're really thorough.

First off, this block and tackle system is just to keep with scale of the full sized BLUENOSE. The size of the string used for the main sheet is 1.5 mm. It is definitely oversized for the work it is supposed to do. It is rated at 95 pounds break strength. 6 strands of it would be 570 pounds.

I did find photos of the block and tackle on full sized BLUENOSE. Understanding how it works, I tried to create the same mechanical design, in miniature. Looking at the block and tackle that I rigged, it looks wrong.
I will un-do the rigging of the block and tackle and clean up the rigging of the sheet.
weight of sheeting
If my sheet was scaled up to the BLUENOSE, it would be a 36mm rope. BLUENOSE appears to be using about a 20mm rope. I have a 0.34mm braided thread I will try, to see if that will lighten the load on the block and tackle.

My counterweight is 1kg. I will start to lighten it to see what force is needed to open the the block and tackle.

When I change over to the 0.34 mm line I will check to see if it needs less load to open up the block and tackle.

A 0.75mm string is rated for 41 pounds. That is approximately the total weight of the model. 0.34 mm string will be one quarter of the 0.75 cross section, so maybe 10 pounds?? With 6 lines in the block and tackle to produce rating of 60 pounds or 1.5 times the weight of the entire vessel.

So, first job is to get the block and tackle working better.
At least it works, TEST #1: PASSED
On to test #2

To the top, the DOUBLE BLOCK
To the bottom, the TRIPLE BLOCK on the MAIN BOOM
The red is the container full of water, the counterweight for the test
The main sheet is extended out

Top down view of the MAIN WINCH connected by the MAIN SHEET, to the DOUBLE BLOCK that would be on the deck

As promised, the MAIN SAIL BOOM with triple block & double block (no sails in place).
To the left vertically, is the LOWER MAIN MAST
To the right horizontally, is the MAIN BOOM
To the far right is the MAIN WINCH
To centre lower is the board supporting the counter weight for the test