SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Hi Trev, thought I almost had it, but wasn't that hopeful in the beginning, as I know what Chinese stuff is like, but it was worth a crack. There must be better quality fittings somewhere, probably US, but a lot of places won't ship down here, and the cost is usually prohibitive if they will. Not giving up yet though,- there will be a way, just haven't found it yet.
JB
JB
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
This time I used the ends of the CV shafts which normally house the hex sliding shafts. Made an ally shaft to fit snugly inside, and pinned them with a 3mm grub screw. Also added the balancer from the earlier shaft, but this time drilled and tapped a 4mm hole one side, for a 4mm grub screw, idea being to rotate it and neutralise the vibration.
As before, it all vibrated insanely at anything more than about 5000rpm. The balancer reduced it slightly, but even putting 2 grub screws in the same hole to add more weight changed nothing. The ends are so badly out that nothing is going to fix it unfortunately. One of the biggest problems is that the CV joint has far too much side movement, and that and the Chinese machining error, added together is useless for anything high speed. Maybe tiny Teflon shims either side of the CV ball to take the play out might work, and a big hammer to straighten the ball end, but..................
I think I'll give it a rest for a while, till I think of something different to use. I think for this type of system, a cable may be the only answer.
CONCLUSION,- you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig😁
JB
As before, it all vibrated insanely at anything more than about 5000rpm. The balancer reduced it slightly, but even putting 2 grub screws in the same hole to add more weight changed nothing. The ends are so badly out that nothing is going to fix it unfortunately. One of the biggest problems is that the CV joint has far too much side movement, and that and the Chinese machining error, added together is useless for anything high speed. Maybe tiny Teflon shims either side of the CV ball to take the play out might work, and a big hammer to straighten the ball end, but..................
I think I'll give it a rest for a while, till I think of something different to use. I think for this type of system, a cable may be the only answer.
CONCLUSION,- you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig😁
JB
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Hi JB,
That truly is unfortunate, I really thought you had it solved🤔☹️
Trev
That truly is unfortunate, I really thought you had it solved🤔☹️
Trev
Liked by stevedownunder and jbkiwi
SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Hi Trev, sadly another failure (see reply to Steve below) Works ok at low speed only. I was hoping this would sort the vibration issues. Next idea
JB
JB
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Hi Steve, it might look ok, but the Chinese junk on each end lets it down and it vibrates like a bas#***rd,- not even drilled straight,- seemed fine till you hooked it all up. Obviously done in more than one operation, and one doesn't match the other. The shaft is dead straight though,- that was the easy part. On to the next experiment.
JB
JB
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
I decided to make a purpose built driveshaft for the experiment, which will be used if things work out. The last driveshaft worked quite well and ran smoothly in the right position, but the alloy rod was not going to be permanent as it's too soft. I had some 4mm silver steel left from the new jet prop shaft, so I started with a short length of that.
Made step up bushes for each end to fit the 6.8mm holes in the back side of the CV joints,(other ends are 5mm for the motor and prop shaft)- one was a press fit on the shaft and the other a push fit (so as to be removable) with a 3mm hole in the side for the CV grub screw to go though to grip the shaft. I fitted a 4mm flanged bearing in one end of the 8mm brass tube and left the other end (transom) open for now, as I may fit an Acetal bush for salt water use.
There is a Teflon thrust washer for each end of the tube. I'll fit an oiler tube as well. Also slotted the motor mount to allow for adjustment of the stinger drive. Hopefully this will be the option with the least vibration, - also won't need a seal on the transom. The experiment continues.
JB
Made step up bushes for each end to fit the 6.8mm holes in the back side of the CV joints,(other ends are 5mm for the motor and prop shaft)- one was a press fit on the shaft and the other a push fit (so as to be removable) with a 3mm hole in the side for the CV grub screw to go though to grip the shaft. I fitted a 4mm flanged bearing in one end of the 8mm brass tube and left the other end (transom) open for now, as I may fit an Acetal bush for salt water use.
There is a Teflon thrust washer for each end of the tube. I'll fit an oiler tube as well. Also slotted the motor mount to allow for adjustment of the stinger drive. Hopefully this will be the option with the least vibration, - also won't need a seal on the transom. The experiment continues.
JB
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Hi JB,
I do like the idea of an adjustable motor mount 👍👍
Would seem to solve a lot of alignment issues, thus reducing vibration.
Trev
I do like the idea of an adjustable motor mount 👍👍
Would seem to solve a lot of alignment issues, thus reducing vibration.
Trev
Liked by jbkiwi and stevedownunder
SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Re cut the driveshaft end to fit into another 5mmx 6mm CV joint from a second truck driveshaft. Made a 'micrometer style mount this time, and added an Acetal balancer ring which was cut on an angle one end, to give more weight on one side. Still needs more weight, so I'll drill and tap it for a small Grub screw which can be screwed in or out to fine tune the balancing. It's a firm fit on the shaft, and can be moved round to suit.
Balance is not too bad with this twin CV set-up, but will require the mount holes slotting so the drive can be adjusted for angle (shaft moves back as you adjust down and vice versa) and a bit of precise motor positioning. I am thinking, if I can get this system working well enough to install it in the new model, I can leave the shaft hole open in the transom, and make a waterproof box inside to mount a seal (as I did with the Amphitruck driveshaft).
JB
Balance is not too bad with this twin CV set-up, but will require the mount holes slotting so the drive can be adjusted for angle (shaft moves back as you adjust down and vice versa) and a bit of precise motor positioning. I am thinking, if I can get this system working well enough to install it in the new model, I can leave the shaft hole open in the transom, and make a waterproof box inside to mount a seal (as I did with the Amphitruck driveshaft).
JB
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Looks like you have all of the variations of couplings covered, JB👍👍👍
Trev
Trev
Liked by stevedownunder
SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Here are a few of the coupling types I've tried recently, and none of them are brilliant. My silicone job was ok but the best system by far is a cable drive and collet. In the ic boats we used the ball and socket type which were 100% reliable. When cable drives came along, everyone changed to them, as you can get the perfect thrust line with them.
The old cable drive in the pic is still good after being thrashed for hours in a 40" Deep V Prather hull, with an O.S .45 FSR behind it. Hooked the in-runner up to it and it's still as smooth as silk (well almost) - better than the other stuff. I have a new complete cable drive which just needs the stern support bracket, so that will be the back-up I think.
Re support bearings, I thought that having an open shaft with a bearing at each end could possibly work, but in effect, it's the same as a normal driveshaft and tube, (might be safer,- nothing to grab hold of loose stuff). I need some brass driveshaft tube to make a new shaft up, as I have some new flanged 4mm bearings I can try, so I'll have a think about the next effort. With brass tube, I can solder on brackets for positioning.
JB
The old cable drive in the pic is still good after being thrashed for hours in a 40" Deep V Prather hull, with an O.S .45 FSR behind it. Hooked the in-runner up to it and it's still as smooth as silk (well almost) - better than the other stuff. I have a new complete cable drive which just needs the stern support bracket, so that will be the back-up I think.
Re support bearings, I thought that having an open shaft with a bearing at each end could possibly work, but in effect, it's the same as a normal driveshaft and tube, (might be safer,- nothing to grab hold of loose stuff). I need some brass driveshaft tube to make a new shaft up, as I have some new flanged 4mm bearings I can try, so I'll have a think about the next effort. With brass tube, I can solder on brackets for positioning.
JB
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Hi JB,
I agree, supporting the shaft at both ends should work. Or a solid coupling at the motor end, but that would entail perfect alignment, or a floating motor mount?
Trev
I agree, supporting the shaft at both ends should work. Or a solid coupling at the motor end, but that would entail perfect alignment, or a floating motor mount?
Trev
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Hi JB,
I think you are right supporting the shaft at both ends should do the trick. Great work.
Cheers,
Stephen.
I think you are right supporting the shaft at both ends should do the trick. Great work.
Cheers,
Stephen.
Liked by jbkiwi and pressonreguardless
SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Made a new test transom like the proper Stiletto one, and tried a new ally driveshaft with fewer bits, and made a temporary Acetal shaft support at the rear to see if that would help, (did slightly but needed precise alignment to stop the shaft 'jacking' the CV - acts as a fulcrum) The vibration problem has now moved to the motor end (CV runs quietly when greased and play is centered).
I've tried a number of good fitting true running plain couplings, and even the trusty silicone tube, but it really changed nothing, (even holding the shaft) Probably to do with the long unsupported driveshaft needing a solid bearing mount at the motor end. Next plan is a std prop shaft with bearings, supported at both ends to see if that helps.
I tried using the 36/52 in-runner for the test on 3s, and it will have plenty of power if I can get this working. If not, the model might just end up with a boring old std shaft😁 OR, a cable drive, (only drawback being cable drag on an electric motor, using extra power.) Either way it will move under its' own power eventually.
JB
I've tried a number of good fitting true running plain couplings, and even the trusty silicone tube, but it really changed nothing, (even holding the shaft) Probably to do with the long unsupported driveshaft needing a solid bearing mount at the motor end. Next plan is a std prop shaft with bearings, supported at both ends to see if that helps.
I tried using the 36/52 in-runner for the test on 3s, and it will have plenty of power if I can get this working. If not, the model might just end up with a boring old std shaft😁 OR, a cable drive, (only drawback being cable drag on an electric motor, using extra power.) Either way it will move under its' own power eventually.
JB
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Hi Colin, I'm sure that app will make things a lot easier. Problems of modern technology, always having to update drivers, media storage or download things to match with what you have.
I'm keeping all of my old hand woodworking tools, 'just in case' (and my records lol) new isn't necessarily better in a lot of cases. We are constantly forced to buy new tech and upload everything older you have to it, as older stuff is phased out (records, tapes, CDs, DVDs/Blueray, (even flash drives, external hard drives etc are apparently only safe for about 10yrs before they should be replaced) I have records 50yrs old (not alone there) which still play perfectly, but it's hard to find a good turntable which doesn't cost a spleen these days.
Tech for techs' sake I think in a lot of cases. A bit like cars, - full of gadgets most people will never use, which would be better coming as plug-in options.
JB
I'm keeping all of my old hand woodworking tools, 'just in case' (and my records lol) new isn't necessarily better in a lot of cases. We are constantly forced to buy new tech and upload everything older you have to it, as older stuff is phased out (records, tapes, CDs, DVDs/Blueray, (even flash drives, external hard drives etc are apparently only safe for about 10yrs before they should be replaced) I have records 50yrs old (not alone there) which still play perfectly, but it's hard to find a good turntable which doesn't cost a spleen these days.
Tech for techs' sake I think in a lot of cases. A bit like cars, - full of gadgets most people will never use, which would be better coming as plug-in options.
JB
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
I think pictures/videos show more than a lot of words Trev, it's nice to see how things are working (or not) as against people trying to visualise what you're trying to describe. Good to mention and show problems if possible, as it can sometimes prevent others from having similar problems. A picture might say a thousand words, but a video says a whole lot more.
I always video all my planes first flights (and others) and it's amazing what you can gain from looking at the vid if something goes wrong, as you can quite often see the problem and correct it (as long as you're not going home with a shopping bag of bits)😁
Re frustration,-
I get frustrated waiting for 20 mins for an edited video to process, only for the editing program to shut down for an unknown reason, and to have to start all over again.😠
JB
I always video all my planes first flights (and others) and it's amazing what you can gain from looking at the vid if something goes wrong, as you can quite often see the problem and correct it (as long as you're not going home with a shopping bag of bits)😁
Re frustration,-
I get frustrated waiting for 20 mins for an edited video to process, only for the editing program to shut down for an unknown reason, and to have to start all over again.😠
JB
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I know what you mean, JB. I have the same problem. no one in my area has any interest in Hobbys. Much less creating the Masterpieces that you create. That is why i like this site, people that share the same interests.
Recording, Editing and posting is a lot of work, can be frustrating. I have been remiss in this Regard.
Trev
Recording, Editing and posting is a lot of work, can be frustrating. I have been remiss in this Regard.
Trev
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JB, this new app on my phone does all formats, I've just been trying, AVI, MOV, MP4, all work fine, HD movie support as well.
Cheers Colin.
Cheers Colin.
Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
COLIN.
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No Problem Trev. Sometimes they are not brilliant due to weather etc, but I occasionally try and chuck something different in, (not always about boats) to see if anyone's interested. I like Phils' on water vids, unfortunately there are never any other boats here to get amongst for videos, (only yachts). People here aren't interested in scale type model boats any more, rarely see another one anywhere these days. Old mans' hobby 😂 (won't be many old guys left the way the omniblob's knocking us off here.)
JB
JB
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Hi Colin, thought it might have been something simple. With so many formats around these days, you can get the odd mismatch. I need a new video editor, as my new camera uses MOV (Quicktime) which the editor doesn't cover, (everything else but MOV) bit annoying, means I have to try and do short good first time videos with no rubbish at either end 😁 quite tricky.
JB
JB
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Hi JB, if my laptop had been working it wouldn't have been a problem. But now have an AVI player installed on my phone, and the video now work correctly, and very informative, not for any amusement. (XPLAYER for Android. )
Your posts are always clear and concise, with an outstanding amount of detail, so please keep them coming. 👍
Cheers Colin.
Your posts are always clear and concise, with an outstanding amount of detail, so please keep them coming. 👍
Cheers Colin.
Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
COLIN.
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Microsoft AVI is not prehistoric Doug, still std with microsoft and used everywhere. I could have put up a vid in 4k, but my camera uses MOV , but the site wouldn't allow it, plus people would need Quicktime to view it. Tried posting any of your own videos lately, ? I'm sure we'd all like to see them. I have real boats to play with if I'm wasting my time here posting things for others' entertainment. Let me know if I am.
JB
JB
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Hi Colin, could be you don't have the player required. AVI is a common Microsoft format for windows and usually plays with windows media player,- sometimes a particular file will play, (or just the sound but others wont. AVI has superior picture output to MP4, which uses a smaller format, but can be played on most media players. I just tried this 1080P (not 360P as Doug said) video as it was quicker and easier to post.
It was demonstrating the amount of play in the Chinese couplings I was experimenting with. The reason it was grainy, was it's a cheap HD camera and it was at night. I's a good camera for close up stuff normally in the daylight.
JB
It was demonstrating the amount of play in the Chinese couplings I was experimenting with. The reason it was grainy, was it's a cheap HD camera and it was at night. I's a good camera for close up stuff normally in the daylight.
JB
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That kinda explains it Colin.
Highly unlikely that a Dumbphone will have the CODEC to decode prehistoric AVI files.
You didn't miss much. The Toob version is the only interesting one anyway.
Cheers, an' G'night 💤💤😴, Doug
Highly unlikely that a Dumbphone will have the CODEC to decode prehistoric AVI files.
You didn't miss much. The Toob version is the only interesting one anyway.
Cheers, an' G'night 💤💤😴, Doug
Young at heart 😉 Slightly older in other places.😊 Cheers Doug
SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Ho Colin,
The first two aren't really worth the trouble. They are very grainy 360p resolution AVI files showing JB twiddling the various couplings. Why you have sound but not video is a mystery!
Have you tried opening the downloaded file with Windows Media player? Works for me.
The last one viewed on Utoob is much better, you can set the resolution to 1080p or higher if your device can manage it. It's also followed by JB's Tank Test of his Hartley Flareline water jet.
Cheers, Doug😎
The first two aren't really worth the trouble. They are very grainy 360p resolution AVI files showing JB twiddling the various couplings. Why you have sound but not video is a mystery!
Have you tried opening the downloaded file with Windows Media player? Works for me.
The last one viewed on Utoob is much better, you can set the resolution to 1080p or higher if your device can manage it. It's also followed by JB's Tank Test of his Hartley Flareline water jet.
Cheers, Doug😎
Young at heart 😉 Slightly older in other places.😊 Cheers Doug
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Hi jb, I am having trouble with the media files, have sound but no picture.
Cheers Colin.
Cheers Colin.
Fair winds and calm waters,
COLIN.
COLIN.
SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Hi Steve, good point, but I was thinking of filling the inside of the tube up, (without the bush in,) and running it with a drill for a while. I can easily bore the Acetal bush out a bit more if necessary. the shaft can probably do with a bit of clearance either way so it won't get too hot. Might even drill some angled holes to force water into the rear bush, like the K&B outboards, which water lube the bushes, (similar to full sized boats cutlass bearings.)
I thought about boring the rear end out and replacing the metal bush with an Acetal one, but I'll see how the originals go first. Used to run Teflon bushes in the ic boats years ago, and they lasted forever, and were a lot quieter than brass/bronze. Good for salt water as well, - unlike bearings.
JB
I thought about boring the rear end out and replacing the metal bush with an Acetal one, but I'll see how the originals go first. Used to run Teflon bushes in the ic boats years ago, and they lasted forever, and were a lot quieter than brass/bronze. Good for salt water as well, - unlike bearings.
JB
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Looks like it should be good, nice progress JB,
Although are you saying that you will put Brasso onto the Acetal bushes?
If that's the case IMHO there could be a problem with the abrasive impregnating the Acetal and continuing to abrade after you want it to.
Cheers,
Stephen.
Although are you saying that you will put Brasso onto the Acetal bushes?
If that's the case IMHO there could be a problem with the abrasive impregnating the Acetal and continuing to abrade after you want it to.
Cheers,
Stephen.
SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Made the new 5mm silver steel prop shaft for the stinger unit, (stepped to 4mm for prop, drive dog and nylock nut,) and will be making a better test drive-shaft for the experiment,- hopefully with less play and a bit smoother. Shaft is left long for later adjustment. Once sorted for pivot center alignment, it will be cut down. Reamed the 2 bushes in the stinger drive to 5mm, as they were for a 3/16 cable drive shaft. Need a bit of 'running in' with brasso as they are a smidge firm with the new front Acetal support bush as well, (replaces cable drive outer).
JB
JB
SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Hi Julio, see the explanation in post below yours.
JB
JB
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Hi Chris, just click on the media file, click the download arrow top left of black screen, wait for it to download (bottom left), click find in file (download folder) where it should be highlighted) and open it. Should do the trick.
JB
JB
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Looking Foward to Seeing the Developments on this, JB.
Uncharted Territory for Me 😂😂
Trev
Uncharted Territory for Me 😂😂
Trev
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SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
They don't work for me either Chris.
Precedent Perkasa MTB 49 1/2"
Precedent Fairey Huntsman 46"
Veron Fairey Huntsman 28 42"
Precedent Fairey Huntsman 36"
Aerokits Sea Commander 34"
Aerokits Sea Rover 29 1/2"
SLEC Fairey Huntress 23"
Precedent Fairey Huntsman 46"
Veron Fairey Huntsman 28 42"
Precedent Fairey Huntsman 36"
Aerokits Sea Commander 34"
Aerokits Sea Rover 29 1/2"
SLEC Fairey Huntress 23"
SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
I can't get the media files to run. Is it just me?
Scratch building 7 Faireys at a scale of 1:12
SURFACE DRIVE EXPERIMENT
Thought I'd have a go at a slightly different type of drive for the future Stiletto project, and try and make a stinger drive into a surface drive, to have drive and steering all in one. I bought a stinger drive for a 5mm shaft and a couple of car CV type driveshafts to steal bits off.
Made up a rough dummy transom to test it out. Milled a bit more clearance in the back of the stinger bracket for the CV, made a couple of transom-drive brackets, (modified from hardware corner brackets,) made an Acetal bush to replace the usual cable drive in the back of the stinger, (to support the shaft rear), and a small 4mm-5mm adaptor shaft to go between the brass motor connector and the inner CV for the test.
There is a huge amount of slop in the Chinese connectors and the red d/shaft has a loose sliding hex inside, so not the smoothest running. Also no bearing in the transom to support the future one piece motor to CV shaft. The final shaft (test dummy) also is free to move in and out, but will be properly positioned once the stinger shaft is made, which should smooth things out. A steering arm to make as well if I can get it working properly.
Probably take a while to get it working smoothly and it may not even be suitable, but fun to try anyhow. Have built a shaft slot in the keel just in case 😁. Motor for the test was the slowest I had, and run slowly to avoid possible flying bits. The final motor will hopefully be the 540 S V-spec fan cooled 36/52 1100kv in-runner which I'll be water cooling. Had it for about 10 yrs, so decided it needed a home, (another experiment).
1 vid shows the amount of slop in the connector, which should be 0 if made correctly. This is why people have so much trouble with vibrations in boats. The only real way to fix it is to make your own and ream the shaft holes to size,-not drill them like the Chinese seem to do.
JB
Made up a rough dummy transom to test it out. Milled a bit more clearance in the back of the stinger bracket for the CV, made a couple of transom-drive brackets, (modified from hardware corner brackets,) made an Acetal bush to replace the usual cable drive in the back of the stinger, (to support the shaft rear), and a small 4mm-5mm adaptor shaft to go between the brass motor connector and the inner CV for the test.
There is a huge amount of slop in the Chinese connectors and the red d/shaft has a loose sliding hex inside, so not the smoothest running. Also no bearing in the transom to support the future one piece motor to CV shaft. The final shaft (test dummy) also is free to move in and out, but will be properly positioned once the stinger shaft is made, which should smooth things out. A steering arm to make as well if I can get it working properly.
Probably take a while to get it working smoothly and it may not even be suitable, but fun to try anyhow. Have built a shaft slot in the keel just in case 😁. Motor for the test was the slowest I had, and run slowly to avoid possible flying bits. The final motor will hopefully be the 540 S V-spec fan cooled 36/52 1100kv in-runner which I'll be water cooling. Had it for about 10 yrs, so decided it needed a home, (another experiment).
1 vid shows the amount of slop in the connector, which should be 0 if made correctly. This is why people have so much trouble with vibrations in boats. The only real way to fix it is to make your own and ream the shaft holes to size,-not drill them like the Chinese seem to do.
JB
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