Hi Ron,
You have done a fantastic job on those drawings.
I now know who to call should i need to.

Well done.

Martin555.

David,
1) Print out plans twice
2) Use one set of plans to make a paper mock-up
3) Use the other set of plan drawings for making comments, alterations, true measurements after seeing the original boat.

4) Discuss the project with Philip and show him the drawings. He will recommend the best materials to use and where to purchase them. Who knows, maybe some club members might even assist with various components, or sell you materials at a reduced cost.

Dear Doug - would like to apply for the Moderator job - NOT - would have to spend far too much time being tactful . Appreciate what you do - funny not many members want to be in committees or suchlike positions in Clubs either. Thankless job - Scale Captain of my old club in Lymington wants to step down after 10 or so years due to poor health - no takers so far as I know - nor for the treasurer's post who also wants out - which has been filled by the sole woman member of the club for about the same length of time.
So please carry on doing what you do - some of us are truly grateful for what Martin, Stephen and yourself do for the rest of us.................

Get well mate!👍

JB

"Site etiquette is a blanket that covers us all regardless of circumstances."
Agreed BS.
But doesn't that also apply to those who responded with perhaps somewhat unconsidered sharp off the cuff comments?
BTW; I noted that you 'liked' my attempt to pour oil on troubled waters. Thanks for that👍
Cheers, Doug 😎
PS Anyone interested in a Moderator's job?😉
Nah! Thought not😁

"Hi Doug.
As always your knowledge is received with interest and depth."
Thank you Bill, although I'm not quite sure how one receives 'in depth'!
Whatever😉
I stand by my words below.
Personal interaction was not neccessary as, as soon as I noticed that something was off kilter, I took the time and trouble to do a little research. As a result I found other cries for help from David on another forum. Where incidentally he found much less resonance than he did here, a credit to our members who responded positively.👍 Well done Ron especially.
"clearly in confidence and should remain so" - I have not betrayed, and would not betray, a confidence.
My 'digging' led me to that info on an open forum.
(Please don't ask me for chapter and verse as that, with URLs, is now buried in my old Dell PC which crashed 😭 while I was processing one of Ron's mammoth Autocad drawing files.
In record time I acquired a new PC which I'm using to write this, albeit with a temporary lashup installation!)
Back to the chase!
As said I stand by every word I wrote below.
I don't consider David's comments as aggressive, more as stubborn determination to stick to his course.
I did however consider some responses from one or two members as, shall we say, a bit 'off the cuff' or 'shot from the hip' without due consideration.
Several members, including me, have their crosses to bear and have opened their hearts here and received appropriate support.
Why not David?
"... you are criticising members who in total innocence are having a natural reaction."
At first I was also surprised at some of David's comments, but then I slowly began to understand.
I believe that I covered that point below so I'll leave it at that.
"The trouble is we can seldom know why someone reacts as they do, and can inadvertently make things worse if we get frustrated at their responses to our attempts to help."
Wish I'd stepped in earlier, but had my own issues!
"I would be interested to know what further action you may take?"
I could block David from site access but I don't think that that would be fair or justified. Do you?
I would rather hope that David progresses with his dream using the excellent drawings and info that Ron has supplied👍 and that he can be encouraged along the way and will show us the fruits of his labours.
I could also go back through the whole thread and edit out the comments that seem to have ruffled feathers (on both sides!), BUT
as you say "We do after all live in a democracy with freedoms of speech."
Up to a point yes, but with due consideration. Some responses struck me as overreactions to (understandable) frustration.
I note with appreciation that at least one member has seen fit to edit his post himself. Shows strength of character - he knows who he is👍
I have tried to diplomatically call a halt to this uneccessary wrangle and sincerely hope that David will stick with us and report on the fruits of his labours.
Now let's all get back to model boat stuff😉
All the best to All, STAY SAFE.
Cheers, Doug 😎

Absolutely agree with Scratchbuilder. Site etiquette is a blanket that covers us all regardless of circumstances.

Hi Doug.
As always your knowledge is received with interest and depth.
Reading your message suggests that you have had personal interaction with David (Wells boy) which is good and if so is clearly in confidence and should remain so 👍.
I,like probably many others have followed his thread with interest and noted his quite aggressive comments,and do feel that others may have a legitimate gripe at his retorts to genuine offers of valued help.
Perhaps had he explained the problem in public, members would have been a little more understanding,(but at the same time I respect his privacy)
Perhaps on reflection you may think you are criticising members who in total innocence are having a natural reaction.
I would be interested to know what further action you may take?
We do after all live in a democracy with freedoms of speech.
Keep up the good work on a great site.
Regards Bill.

Thanks for the Edit Rick👍👍
😊😎

Careful Rick, (and to a lesser extent Ian)
David (WellsBoi) is in a rather fragile state following the loss of his wife whom he had cared for for over 10 years.
I appreciate what you (and others) are saying but I think your last sentence was superfluous anyway Rick.
The trouble is we can seldom know why someone reacts as they do, and can inadvertently make things worse if we get frustrated at their responses to our attempts to help.

So I think we should call a halt at this point.
David's original questions have been answered:-
he has the plans he wanted, thanks to Ron's tenacious efforts👍 (give that man a Scooby doll - he's a STAR),
and also a list of suitable running gear and electronics. Again thanks to Ron for that☀️
He also has some excellent advice, from many sources - thanks fellas, as to which glues to use and how to seal his wooden hulls.
So let's just leave it at that now. I don't want to have to take any further action on this if it can be avoided.
I do hope that maybe, much later, David will let us know how he got on and post some photos of his 'Dream boats'.

Cheers All, Play nicely now😉, and stay safe!!
Doug 😎

Not sure what your on about as you posted you were not sure about how you would seal your boat.Must say you seam to be upset most of the time.
I understand you don't want us to tell you how to build or what material to use.
In my time on this site I have found only help.

Rick

Apologies but it is interesting and helpful from these posts different ideas which could possibly help you achieve what you require with materials that are available. I will now leave you to your own devices as I thought I was being helpful This obviously is not your requirement and I can say and do little more

The posts are not directed at my thread or me so keep on topic or pm each other

Can't get Eze kote in ZA I use ZapPoxy Resin. Thins easy compared to Polyester

Agreed the cloth works well.The build blog of the Borkum look a like I used the cloth with EZY KOTE and not finishing epoxy resin.I found this helped in getting a smother finish as I could work the cloth with my fingers and not be stuck to the cloth.Water wash up after .
Rick

Hi Redmpg,
I managed get some very fine woven glass Fibre cloth from somewhere IN SA but can't remember the name it's on my desk at home and I am in hospital with covid soon as I get out I will pm you
Regards
Ian

Hi Rick,
I use a very light cloth as used by the aeromodellers lightest you can get. Have also used aircraft tissue but it's now difficult to find. The lightweight cloth woven is the best.

Hi redpmg it is a light weight fiber cloth.
Rick

I have started using Z Poxy resin and fiberglass installed lightweight cloth. Z Poxy thinned with de natured alcohol. Fumes aren't bad but as usual work in well ventilated area

Hi Rick - do you mean fibreglass tissue or lightweight cloth? The only one I ever use is the tissue - marketed for use on walls after removing wallpaper etc to hide small cracks - used with PVA paint of course not Polyester Resin.
If I was able to obtain it would use the water based epoxy - very little smell and should imagine it soaks in a bit - plasticising the surface .
As it is usually use 20 to 30% thinned polyester resin without any tissue of any kind - it soaks into the wood and forms a hard plastic type outer layer. Use two coats if necessary - works well on Balsa, Obeche , Mahogany & Meranti - hardly sticks to real teak because of the oily surface .
Where strength is really needed there are many things you can use instead of fibreglass which is nasty stuff to use. They include nappy liners , roof membrane , paper towels (the type used for dishwashing, the material used by dressmakers to strengthen lightweight fabric - and of course tissue paper if you use model aircraft dope.

If you look in my Harbor you will see I built a Dumas boat (Cobra) it is doubled planked with mahogany top layer.This boat I used finishing z-poxy with fiberglass mesh.The resin dries clear to let the mahogany show. Careful application of fiberglass is needed.Able to sand the boat when resin is dry.
Rick

Not decided yet on how i will seal the out side of the hull yet as the boat wont be painted but varished But maybe the inside could be fiberglass resin ?

That sounds OK. Because I would be applying it to the inside, it could easily be split into sections.
Sounds like a plan! Thanks.

When using finishing z-poxy I leave the boat over night to cure and be ready to sand.After mixing a good 1/2 hour working time to be able to coat the boat.When working with the z-poxy I get finished well before it becomes unusable.
Rick

My comments on Gorilla glue were when left unpainted. I'm just unsure how it would behave if water got into the joints. It's still my preferred woodglue by a long way.
I certainly need to seal the inside of my tug pretty well as it is likely to be swimming in warm water and steam oil!
How long is the working time of z-epoxy?

I've used gorilla wood glue for my boats works very well.The sealing of the boat I use 2 part finishing z-poxy and fiberglass mesh outside to help with strength and water proofing. Inside I do finishing z-poxy to seal just in case water gets in.Both inside and out then are water proof.
Rick

Casco ? I used when I was in joinery shop. Glue on one piece & a pink setting agent on other. That was waterproof if I remember. Gorilla glue may not stand continuously being wet. But our boats only have to withstand a few hours a week at most.

Hi Nonsuch,
we used Aerolite for our boats in preference to Cascamite which becomes very brittle with age and collision with a bank etc was enough to shatter a joint - believe it was made from eggs. Can remember having to help my Dad re-skin our small duckboat as it was built with Cascamite

Was only the 300 type available in those days - funnily enough the father of a friend (who was a fellow TF trainee in the RRAF) built Mossies as a lad during WW2 - they used presses but the layup was done by hand which he said was very hard work - and he ended up hating the smell of Aerolite. It was the only decent glue available up to the 70s when they developed acrylic resins and later the waterproof variety..........

Would not use Aerolite today because of the long drying/clamping time and smell - much better to use the quick grab white waterproof resin type or the Aliphatics.

Epoxy is also useful for small tough jobs.

Know that a lot of people use cyano types - but they can cause skin problems like epoxy and cyanide is poisonous........its not waterproof either - only water resistant.

The local boatbuilders (full size) use a polyurethane type glue Brummer "Balcotan" (dark brown & foamy like "Gorilla" original glue) but others advise against it saying it becomes brittle like Cascamite. Works well with fibreglass though as it sort of "melts" its way in .

If I were living in the UK I would use Deluxe glues - they give a great detailed list of which glue is suitable for what and everyone seems to use their water based epoxy coating resin . Such a wide range available - unfortunately out here choice is limited and any imports very expensive because of the horrendous exchange rate. Did bring some with when leaving UK but long since run out.

Another adhesive I have used in the past is Aerolite, which seems to be still available as Aerolite 306. This is another water mix adhesive but comes with a hardener component. Brush one half of the joint with the paste and the other side with hardener. It cures in half an hour. The mixed paste can be kept for 24 hours or so.
Back in the 60's, my Dad and I used it to double diagonal plank a Vosper RTTL. Careful application of heat (we used a soldering iron) could be used to "stitch" the ply strips together and hold the concave shape without complicated clamping. My auntie told us that trick. She was taught it as they used Aerolite to build DH Mosquitos in WW2.

I think the secret to Cascamite is in the clamping. On it's own it dries brittle. Clamping forces it into the grain, like the resin in glass fibre. I even wrapped the planks with rubber bands to pull them edge to edge.
The usual pinning technique and PVA caused me much grief, probably due to the oil content of cedar wood. A full speed broadside from a Marblehead is quite a thwack, but I never had a burst plank join with Casco!

I used cascamite when I was building real boats. Excellent adhesive but it is a question of leaving clamped overnight. I hadn't seen any for years then saw it in an Axminster Tool shop a while ago pre covid. One dinghy builder I knew, used to paint the inside of his boats with cascamite, said it helped with waterproofing.

Nerys

If you are not looking for ease of use there is always Cascamite. This is a powdered resin glue which you mix with water. It's very much a clamp and forget until morning glue but is recommended for full size boat building and seriously waterproof, probably more so than the wood you are glueing. I used it for model Marblehead yachts, which I planked from cedar, which didn't seem to like PVA .

Hi WellsBoi,

I don't know if it is available in the UK though down here in AU I find Titebond 3 to be a fantastic adhesive quite waterproof as well, doing experiments it bonds other materials to wood successfully.

Cheers,
Stephen.

EvoStik Exterior seems to be properly waterproof. I build mainly static sail, so they don't get wet and I use Gorilla woodglue because of it's quick grab time. They claim it to be waterproof ... but it isn't. I made some insect houses for the garden and after a good downpour they all fell apart. Interestingly Gorilla and EvoStik are both "D3 outdoor" specification, but my EvoStik insect houses are still in one piece, several months and downpours on.

Like I was told when I started you have a scale model but you do not sail on scale waves or scale wind even on a pond

Are there any better wood glues than what i generaly use which is water proof evo stick wood glue

Hi Guys,
I have been following this thread and it is interesting how a simple question can turn into quite a project.

When i was younger and started model making i had all sorts of plans and visions on how i was going to build my models.

I even mention it to other people and had a few strange looks,
It took me some time until i found that i could make my models using all sorts of material and still ending up with a model that looked like the real thing.

Even now i have big ideas on how to do things but then i finally think KEEP IT SIMPLE and that usually works.

I also listen to as much advice as possible then make my mind up as to what advice to follow.

So guys it is good to give help and advice but please do not make any harmful comments.

I just received a message to please remove my post (WELLSBOI). SORRY for thinking that we were trying to help you.
Rick

Must agree with Hammer.You seam upset with suggestion given.I have found when a member offers advice it's not to be taken as an insult to the original poster.
As builders and members we have had good and bad outcomes of a build so if we offer help it may be that we first tried using items (wood) that did not work.
I might not agree with every helpful post but I try not to bite the hand that sent it.
I may need their help later on.
Rick

You are not building a replica. A replica has to be the same size as the original. You are building a scale model that represents the original. You asked for advice you should take notice. I will be very surprised if you ever finish. Prove me wrong please.

I can not post pics of my work as it is not connected to this forum and will be off topic so illrelivent to the site

Ron
The 2 pic in your post are Remus in Bancaster a few years ago approx .It has changed owership via Ebay Apparently being restored ? but i dont know yet who owns it as the Harbour Master hasnt yet replied .The second pic is Romulus pic was to asist you with drawing the hull shape .Romulus was being cut up in 1993 0n wells quay due to the fishereies compenstation deals

I encourage you to get in touch with Phil.

Be well.

Apologies...

Carry on.

WellsBoi,

I hesitate to dampen your enthusiasm, but there are times when what you think is "the way to go" may not be for several reasons. You've asked for help in this your first build effort, but - and I mean this in the kindest sense, - perhaps your enthusiasm has overtaken your experience.
It is admirable that you want to build your model exactly the way the real boat was built. What needs to be explored a little is scale, and what different materials mean to different sizes. "Remus" required the strength built into her to accomplish what she was designed to do. Building a model with the same materials is simply a talking point. The use of oak for frames on the scale we're talking about may actually be a detriment. Consider having to bevel the frames so the planks lie fair. You don't want a pine plank just touching the forward face of a squared frame edge as there's no bearing surface. If there's no bearing surface there's no gluing surface. Add to this the nature of oak being dense and there's very little glue penetration anyway. I'm betting "Remus" was constructed with hard fasteners on beveled frames which for pine planks on oak frames is the standard.
I would recommend if at all possible visit a couple of local boats, explain what you're attempting, and ask may you check out some of the construction methods.
You obviously have a computer and the skills to use it, go to a search engine and study how a boat is built. A little time invested in this manner will make your model building efforts much more enjoyable because you'll understand not only the "how", but also the "why".

The advice you've gotten from other members here is sound. Use it and you'll be ahead of the game.

Ron
I wont build the 4` boats untill i can go and measure Remus myself and i doubt that will be anytime soon
I am haveing your drawings enlarged so i can glue them onto card or balsa for a mock up

Good carry on!

The Mock up may well be other materials .However the 4` pair will deff be built the same as the full size boats pine on oak frames and built in a traditional way

Follow the course.